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Rednersville event venue recommended for approval amid extensive concerns

By Sharon Harrison
(UPDATE: Approved at council Jan. 14)
Following an extraordinary number of comments at last week’s planning and development committee meeting, council voted to recommend a re-zoning application for a seasonal event venue to be located at 3038 County Road 3 (Rednersville Road) in Ameliasburgh.

The 8-4 recorded vote (councillors Sam Branderhorst, Corey Engelsdorfer, Kate MacNaughton and Janice Maynard opposed) came after almost 30 public comments were heard during the three-and-a-half hour agenda item (which ended at 1.15 a.m. the following day). The decision moves to council to be ratified.

It was acknowledged that what made this application difficult for some neighbours, and also for some council members, is the property owners are Ameliasburgh councillor Sam Grosso and his wife, Lia-Marie Grosso. As is required under municipal law, Grosso excused himself from the room during deliberations due to the conflict of interest. His wife was present and did provide comment.

The idea of a barn being transformed into an event space in what was described as an established, high-density residential neighbourhood, drew extensive input from members of the public, many of whom were close neighbours opposed to the idea. Also contributing were several technical experts, a doctor, a municipal law professional, an architect, a tourism professor and a septic designer and installer, among them.

It was also noted many nearby residents have spent 18 months trying to deal with all the application documents with some spending their own money conducting studies, reviews and reports. Written public comments (all 336 pages of them) were also available as part of the agenda.

Of the more than 30 speakers at the meeting, about half a dozen joined virtually (including a councillor), and were inaudible on the live-stream due to the County’s on-going technical audio problems.

County mayor Steve Ferguson spoke to the musicians and the need for a venue of this sort, particularly in this area, where one written submission noted Ferguson has enjoyed concerts at this venue.

“This could be an important addition to the northern part of the County, whereas most of the other attractions are in the southern part of the County. There is an opportunity for some economic development up there and this venue can play an active role in that,” said Ferguson. “From what I heard from Mrs. Grosso, they will make an honest and straightforward attempt to embrace the community more, and pay attention to and respect their neighbours, and if there are any complaints or violations, they will be attended with expedience.”

Also in favour of supporting the application, councillor Bill Roberts noted it is located along an identified tourism corroder and it is a well-liked and appreciated event venue. “It is making good use of an agricultural structure (a barn), it’s a beautiful thing. Sam Grosso is a person of enormous personal integrity,” he stated. “The hydrogeological study is supportive and the planning act is satisfied, and whether we like them or not, these are the relevant criteria as the shore land designation as it stands now,” added Roberts.

Not in favour of the application was councillor Kate MacNaughton who created a list where the cons outweighed the pros.

“I really struggle because I deal with so many complaints from my neighbours about Base31 who are impacted and can hear music at a distorted level; a lot struggle with the CAPE where there are people partying out on the lawn with a lot of noise and disruption for an entirely residential neighbourhood; with buses idling at the CAPE if you go by at two in the morning,” said MacNaughton, adding “We’ve seen problems with Lakeside [Motel], there are problems in Cherry Valley, and it gives me a pause for concern.”

MacNaughton also spoke to compatibility issues.

“The whole point of zoning is to make good neighbours and to keep land uses compatible. Enforcement is very difficult and we’ve seen this many times. I am very concerned.”

While those members of the public who spoke against the application outweighed those in support by roughly two to one, the application had many supporters, including several neighbours whom have enjoyed musical events at the venue, but mostly musicians (several who have played there) and business people (some who indicated they live elsewhere in the County and were not neighbours).

Sam’s Place -Facebook

Many favoured the addition of more establishments providing musical entertainment, with some indicating how the north of the County was devoid of such venues, as most are in the Picton area. Comments in support included such things as preserving iconic barns in County, the quality of the application and the PPS (provincial policy statement) supporting such development.

Tony Auciello, owner of TerraCello Winery, said he was in full support of the application, describing the event space as an incredible asset and one that will fit seamlessly into an already “ever-growing, dynamic, vibrant cultural art mecca of Ontario”.

“It is a logical, well-conceived, well-designed, fantastically-derived space that I firmly believe will blend perfectly into an already growing tourism sector,” said Auciello, “and will enhance visitors experience and add another layer of cultural significance to the amazing, thriving art, music, gastronomy, culinary, food, wine scene that is already here in Prince Edward County.”

While many reasons were cited against the application, particularly things such as a diminished quality of life for neighbours (increased noise, increased traffic, food truck operations, event tents, etc.), and while the overwhelming key issue for many was noise, there were concerns expressed about a flawed noise study, as well as the validity of hydrogeological studies and the peer reviews, and well water and the shore well as being inadequate.

Others spoke to MDS (minimum distance separation) saying it was a poor fit for the area and was incompatible with the neighbourhood. Some were concerned planning documents are inconsistent, with those posted in November now differing from those released a few days before.

Speaking to the “peaceful, quiet, tranquil road” of Old Orchard Road, Cathy Shank spoke to the noise issue, saying “the music, it’s noise, it’s not music anymore at my end “ noting noise emanating from “one single source for hours on end, daily”.

“With a live stage venue requesting permission, that you can grant or deny, smack dab right in the midst of our homes, pumping out amplified noise (because sound volume is essential to its business), speeches, music, fireworks daily and nightly, multiple times per week for hours on end,” expressed Shank. “And this is their business model in a building with no sound insulation in the walls, the roof or the floor, none, all that noise is produced upstairs, 15 feet off the ground, pulsing over our community. It has already happened. We know noise leakage from this venue is a nuisance, the applicant repeatedly hosted entertainment events, in fact, in defiance of shut down orders.“

Old Orchard Road resident Daniel Mayers, also a musician and legal technologist, was not in support of the application as he spoke to the impacts it would bring on the residential community. “We enjoy this land, enjoy this road and enjoy the tranquility of it. The loop is a community of people who know each other, kids ride their bikes, we stop our cars and chat, it’s a beautiful community.”

“Sam purchased a residence, Sam operated a venue in contravention of the fire code and was shut down by the fire marshal. Sam’s events at Sam’s place can be heard clearly when I leave my house – about 550 metres away you can hear the music clearly,” said Mayers. “Since being shut down, there have been clear concerns Sam’s Place has continued to host events.”

“This is a money-making commercial venture which, if approved, puts commercial interests of one resident over the concerns of Sam’s neighbours. The applicants have shown they are willing to break the rules to get what they want at the expense of their neighbours: the financial interests of one outweighs the concern of many. Chronic rule-breaking and a complete disregard for the bylaws will be rewarded with a permission to operate.”

Old Orchard Road resident Sherry Colborne lives about 20 metres north of the site and said there are many issues about the application that makes it unsupportable, addressing errors in the draft bylaw, stormwater management study as well as the expansion of the venue’s scope.

“This application is deeply flawed. It contains legal and procedural errors in the draft bylaw, it relies on invalidated engineering studies, it introduces surprising and unsupported changes to the scope of use, and it leaves critical questions about parking and wastewater unresolved.

“The legal description of the zoning change is inconsistent with the zoning change,” said Colborne. “The stormwater management study conducted to see how run-off would be managed on this hillside property, given the location, run-off poses a real risk to neighbouring properties, and the bay.”

She also expressed concern at expansion of the venue’s scope, noting the planning rationale describes the intended use of the venue (including the types and sizes of events), but the draft bylaw introduces a completely new provision, with outdoor events of up to 500 people, she said.

“This expansion has not been contemplated in any of the descriptions of property use. None of the engineering studies, including those on water, wastewater and stormwater, reflect this drastic increase in activity.”

She also raised the unresolved issue of the septic bed, noting Cambium cites the location as a problem as it sits atop a sensitive aquifer.
“The County’s peer reviewer agreed, citing this a critical concern. Approving this application without resolving such a fundamental issue is reckless,” she said. “The property, already undersized, is slated to handle wastewater from approximately 50,000 toilet flushes per year. Without a proper plan for wastewater management, this proposal poses serious risks to the environment and neighbouring properties.”

Living within 500 metres of the site, Don Carr spoke to how the development would “destroy what we have become [as a neighbourhood and community] organically”, where he also spoke to the zoning.

“Today, Grosso’s property fully meets he definition of rural residential one zoning. R1 zoning does not permit commercial entertainment with amplified music until eleven for good reason – it’s residential,” said Carr. “This zoning amendment will expose the County site use creep: an afternoon concert above a quaint horse stable today, a speakeasy night club in the adjacent large riding arena tomorrow, or outdoor concerts with nightly fireworks. The operations will grow and future conflicts are bound to multiple. Zoning changes are permanent, and that is plain scary to us.”

Other commenters spoke to the applicant’s documented past lack of respect for bylaw compliance, including Robert Waldon who lives two houses from the site who spoke to a “serious power imbalance” in the process, and one that is to the community’s disadvantage.

“The upshot of what we are being asked to accept hinges on compliance with bylaws for an event space that was shut down by the County for an immediate threat to human life: no fire escapes, no building permit, no zoning,” stated Waldon.

His wife, Heather Waldon, indicated how the venue has already interfered with the enjoyment of their back deck, also outlining how sound can be heard inside their home with doors and windows shut.

“We think we now have 90 events plus 30-plus weddings, April through December, some indoor, some outdoor with food trucks, other vehicles, at least 42 cars, possibly every week, late into the night and the threat of special events allowing up to 500 people until two in the morning,” she expressed. “This is not common sense in what the County planning department calls a high-density residential neighbourhood; it is too much, too many events, too often, and too vague, too loud and too late. “

With a 24-year background in the music industry, Grosso is well-known in the industry, also having operated the now defunct Cadillac Lounge in Toronto, where some are worried Sam’s Place would become the next Cadillac Lounge. He also spoke to the pandemic’s effect on the small venue world of music, which prevented communities gathering to enjoy music.

“This is not the Cadillac lounge, this is a house concert,” noted touring musician, Steven Stanley who said he has played Sam’s Place twice. “The north end of the County needs this space; this is win-win on all levels.”

Licensed architect Francis Lapointe representing a neighbouring property owner spoke to the architectural drawings were missing a second emergency exit, while also noting two other businesses operating out of the property (a pottery business, and a wine tour and car storage facility) , as well as an existing swimming pool not included in the hydrogeological report. He also noted sewage issues, the amount of water needed is grossly underestimated, flawed noise levels, incorrect drawings, a lot too small for purpose, and “significant details omitted from hydrogeological report and inaccurate calculations”.

Old Orchard Road resident Tim Peakert, a licensed septic designer and installer, had concerns about the water quality and the septic system, especially as its future location have not been determined, especially as it relates to parking area, fire routes, neighbouring wells, etc.

“The location of the future septic system has been requested by staff, however the applicant has neglected to provide this in any of their reports,” he said. “The County’s peer review of the hydrogeological study asked for a proposed location, and the proposed location offered to the applicant is a highly vulnerable aquifer.”

He said, the septic property sits on top of an escarpment above him where the soil depth is almost non-existent and the bedrock is very close to the surface. “This is too much risk to neighbouring wells.”

The property currently comprises a single detached dwelling (where the Grosso family resides now) and two barns formally used for boarding horses. One barn is already converted as an event space, but would be further modified to accommodate proposed use in the existing barn, so no additional construction is proposed for the site.

The ground floor of the two-storey barn is intended as lobby space, with bathroom, small office space and small pottery studio, with the second floor to accommodate event space (proposed but noted as already in use and is known as Sam’s Place). Access to the upper level will be via a new larger staircase (to replace a smaller staircase), plus a new elevator.

The barn size is described as small at 55-feet by 33-feet.

The property borders both CR3 (to the south) and Old Orchard Road (to the north), each by 200 metres.

Lia-Marie Grosso spoke to the intention of use and events, but also noted her husband’s three decades in the hospitality industry. She said, at the heart of their goal, is to run a seasonal venue where the community and visitors can experience “truly unique moments of connection”, where she also spoke to the deep desire to support artists.

“We took the temperature of the community near and far by hosting events to get feedback and see what the response was like,” said Grosso. “It was overwhelmingly positive, and the message was clear, that something like this was needed in the north end of the County.”

She said Sam’s Place programming would reflect their passion and commitment to support the arts in its varying forms, whether it be art shows, small theatre productions, children’s concerts or toy drives.

“While the focus has been on music and weddings, there are so many things we would like to do that has little to do with the concerns that will be discussed here tonight.”

Erin Douglas who lives on Old Orchard Road noted how the property is surrounded by homes and families, with the closest property line 40 metres from the barn, and 60 metres from the house. “Within a 100 metres of the property line are 22 properties, and 84 homes make up the loop”.

“The capacity states 100 people, does that include the band, the wait staff, the caterers, the bar tenders, the parking staff and any extra wedding guests?” Douglas asked. “There will be 120 events per year, but what about band practices, sound checks, we know these will occur, we have already experienced it. And for 30 weddings, that’s 30 rehearsals. This will be Cadillac 2.0 and there is nothing telling me otherwise.”

“The perception and transparency in a case like this is delicate,” she added, “Councillor Grosso has not respected the process. For two summers, he held events in contravention of the bylaw, building and fire codes, and then continued to hold live music events after the assistant fire marshal shut him down.”

The 7.5 acre property is currently zoned rural 1 (RU1). The re-zoning would change that to special rural 1 (RU1-284) zone to permit the operation of an event space located within one of the converted barns. The proposed zoning would permit a venue for the purposes of hosting social activities, including, but not limited, to cultural, educational, and entertainment events, private functions, weddings, corporate gatherings, and retreats.

The new zoning would limit uses to seasonal operations for entertainment events (including music and theatre, and weddings), to April 1 to Oct. 31 of any year; seasonal operations for all other cultural or educational events (art and craft shows, etc.) is limited to April 1 to the second weekend of December of any year; a limit of up to 90 events per year, and a maximum of one wedding per week; a maximum guest count of 100 persons; temporary canopies and tents are permitted to only provide protection for guests as an accessory use to the venue, while prohibiting the canopy or tent as a music venue; and music and theatrical events requiring amplification are limited to the second storey of the venue.

Further, the property is located on lands designated as shore land which permits a range of commercial uses, such as resort commercial uses (to provide accommodation and amenities for the vacationing public).

However, despite its designation, some pointed out the property isn’t situated on shore land, has no connection to shore land and doesn’t even have a view of shore land.

County Road 3 is identified as a tourism corridor in the official plan, where Matt Coffey with the County’s planning department states in his report, “new high-quality, year-round attractions, facilities, services, and events are encouraged along the tourism corridors, where they are permitted by the underlying designation, and providing they compatible with the countryside character and charm of the County”.

“The event venue has been designed to ensure a low-intensity activity that is adequate in scale in relation to the surrounding land uses,” stated Coffey.

Only a portion of one of the two existing barns is intended to be used for the event space, with the remaining sections of the converted barn to be retained for storage. As part of the development, a parking area would be established, along with lighting (for parking area), and landscaping.

The proposed development would be serviced by a private, on-site water (including from the Bay of Quinte) and wastewater system (treated on-site).

Coffey notes a well-attended public meeting was held in March where concerns expressed by the public included the potential for noise, security, speed and safety along County Road 3, impacts to ground water and land use compatibility.

“These concerns have been addressed within the various supporting studies,” said Coffey.

All planning documents related to this application can be found on the County’s website, and the meeting recording can be viewed there too.

 

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  1. SS says:

    In the 2015 time frame, our son bought a property that contained a barn similar in size and condition to the applicants. The barn was also located in Ameliasburgh ward, although a few miles south of the Councillor’s property.

    Being a chef, our son proposed an idea for a supper club venue in the barn, and he was told in no uncertain terms that zoning would not permit it. His concept was a supper club for no more than a dozen diners at any time. The dining would be noise-free, except of course for what you would hear in a typical restaurant.

    He tried a number of times to convince Staff (and his Councillors) that it would be good for the County for all the same reasons the Councillor in this case cited. Fell on deaf ears.

    He and his family have since moved away from the County.

  2. Henri Garand says:

    I don’t live on Old Orchard Road, but I sympathise with the residents. Among other things people moving to the country usually seek peace and quiet. It’s what our own visitors from the GTA consistently appreciate. Residential zoning should at least provide protection from business noise. What is wrong with council that it doesn’t recognize this legitimate expectation and sacrifices current residents for questionable economic development?

  3. SS says:

    Reading through the volume of documents associated with this application, one wonders how many County taxpayer dollars were consumed as a result of this application.

    As SM points out, the applicants knew what they bought and the zoning in effect at the time.

    But they have brought this forward anyhow, and despite all the objections from neighbours and the other critics, Council decided to side with the supporters, few if any of which live in proximity to the venue.

    Not cool.

  4. SM says:

    There are two ways to approach a zoning change like this one. One way is to apply for the change in zoning to allow for a future use. Another way is to start that use and then apply for zoning to allow the use. Method one, I would submit is the proper way to proceed. Method two requires one to undertake that use without complying with any of the requirements that proper zoning would entail. Method two should lead to a denial of the zoning application. This property owner is not naive. They ran an entertainment venue for many years. They knew what they purchased when they bought this property just a few short years ago. Any competent lawyer would have told them that their venue did not comply with the existing zoning. The surrounding property owners have the right to enjoy the use of the properties that they purchased knowing the existing zoning and use of their and surrounding properties.

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